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So how did the universe begin? Did an Almighty God create it with His words, or did a ball of super-compressed matter explode? And how did we get where we are today? Did nature begin like this, or did it slowly become what it is today?
This should be a fun debate. Start by stating your views, and then back them up! Have fun!



hoodedwarbler12
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Wacky's Webkinz Newz
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Yay! There are a lot of creation supporters here!



hoodedwarbler12
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Packerda


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First of all, thanks to Hoodedwarble12 for opening this thread to guests at my request (Via webkinz Insider) Some of you might know me, my WI username is Packerdan. Thanks for reading!
Now, let's look at this in two parts. 1. How old is the earth? and 2. How did it begin? Where most people get stuck is thinking that they have to choose God, creation and 7 days or Big Bang, evolution, and millions/billions years, without anything in between. (Mimi's Quote)
According to the bible, there is no stradling the fence here. It is either Creation, or evolution.         Genesis 1:1-2 "In the begining God CREATED the heavens and the earth, and the earth was WITHOUT form, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters." Moving along to later in the chapter . . . And God said, 'Let there be light', and there was light . . . And later . . . And God said, 'Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness' so God CREATED man in his own image, in the image of God he CREATED them, male and female he created them. So according to this, the same thing happened to make light, and man, God spoke. So if God could just speak light into existence, and he could just speak everything else that was created into exesitence, why would he decide to just "Guide" man into being? Why wouldn't he just speak man into being like everything else? And even if he guided evolution, why does the Bible say, "So god CREATED man in his own image" Why doesn't it say, "So God guided as simple single cell creatures advanced and evolved into multi-cell creatures, and eventually to complex fish, and apes, and finally, man" That would make more sense, wouldn't it?
How old is the earth? Well, the salt point has already been adressed, leaving you with a 62 Million year max. (Depending on which studies you look at) But what about Hydrogen?  Well, read this . . .
"To avoid the issue of creation, it would be necessary for all the material of the Universe to be infinitely old, and this it cannot be for a very practical reason. For if this were so, there could be no hydrogen left in the Universe. As I think I demonstrated when I talked about the insides of the stars, hydrogen is being steadily converted into helium throughout the Universe and this conversion is a one-way process—that is to say, hydrogen cannot be produced in any appreciable quantity through the breakdown of the other elements. How come it is then that the Universe consists almost entirely of hydrogen? If matter were infinitely old, this would be quite impossible."—*Fred Hoyle, The Nature of the Universe (1950), p. 125.
I heard a speaker who also addressed this issue, and he dated it, the earth could be no more than I think he said 50 THOUSAND years old.
But wait a sec, doesn't Radiometric Dating (RMD) prove rocks to be billions of years old? Well, lets look at RMD accuracy. As most of you know, in 1982(?) a Volcano in Washington State USA errupted (Mt. Olympus) later, a team of scientists came in and excavated rock that they KNEW had been formed by the lava flows. When they tested the rocks using RMD, they test results came out as 50 MILLION+ years old! Now I don't know about you, but 10, and 50 Million years is a PRETTY large differance.
Now study your body, I think your body speaks for itself, there is absolutley NO way it just came about by chance and evolution. The human body has features no other creature has! Talking for example, other animals can make limited communication, but nothing anywhere NEAR what a human can do.
As for those supposed mid-change species, well, here are some facts on them . . .
 
#1 Piltdown Man, of which only skull fragments were found, is used as proof of human evolution. It was proved to be a hoax in 1982. Collagen tests have since proved the jaw to be from an orangutan which had had its teeth filed down. 
#2 The oldest human-like fossil found so far is a modern human humerus dated by evolutionists at around 4 million years old. It is older than any supposed human ape-like ancestors such as Australopithecus. 
#3 Fossils of modern humans, Homo erectus and Neandertals (or alternatively, Neanderthals), have been found together, at the same level, in the same fossil sites. It is therefore scientifically improper to state that modern humans evolved from Neandertals, and that Neandertals evolved from Homo erectus. 
#4 There is nothing in the size of the brain to indicate morality, behaviour, or any degree of culture. Brain size should not be used to infer these type of characters on fossil remains. 
#5 The first reasonably complete fossil Neandertal skeleton was reconstructed by Boule in 1908 in an ape-like stoop - according to his own interpretation. It took 40 years for his errors to be corrected, yet many historians and teachers still teach Boule's original interpretation of Neandertal physique as fact.
Now,  bend down like you are trying to pick something up, aren't you in an "Ape-like stoop" right there? And when we find these skeletons, we don't find perfectly preserved people, skin, hair, muscle, tissue, we find bones, so any re-creation that includes tissues, hair, skin, muscles, is pure speculation.
And I mean, #1, Piltdown man, it took scientists 100 YEARS! to discover it was a hoax, and all they found where skull fragments, and I believe (Or maybe this was another one) leg fragments 300 YARDS AWAY from eachother! And you also have three differant "Stations" on the evolutionary path found in the same rocklayers!
Speaking of rock layers, if you have it taking a million years for a single rock layer to form, then how do you explain finding petrified trees that go through MULTIPLE rock layers!
Did this tree live to be 25 Million years old? I DON"T THINK SO!
 
I would be REALLY suprised if anyone actually read my entire comment, which is more like a report, but thanks to anyone who did, maybe you can read some of it,
Thanks again!
Webkinz Insiders Packerdan 
 
 
 
 
 

Deep sigh.......First let me explain that I am a 100% born again Christian fanatic and servant of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe in the 100% accuracy of the living Bible...the Holy Word of God. Hoodedwarbler wanted a debate. You cannot have everyone saying yes and God bless without giving a little thought as to the why and what fors. That being said there are still biblical points that can be debated and no one will know till we meet Him face to face.....we may have to agree to disagree.

Packerdan, I agree with 98% of what you wrote. I question two points. First, using the 1 day is like a 1000 years timing, there isn't any real argument against stretching out the creation timeline a bit.....this in no way discounts God's CREATION...it justs allows them to have existed longer than most biblical scholars have allowed with the tight 7 days. All this means is an extra 6000-7000 years of God's created earth....maybe. Who really knows? This is supposed to be a friendly debate to give us new ways of looking at things....hopefully in a Godly way.

You are correct about RMD (carbon dating is the same) and the fossils. However it is possible for the petrified tree to go through rock layers.....example: place a straw in a parfait......now imagine that as a tree that fell into a sandy, silty bog with shifting layers before they solidified.



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Packerda wrote:
First of all, thanks to Hoodedwarble12 for opening this thread to guests at my request (Via webkinz Insider) Some of you might know me, my WI username is Packerdan. Thanks for reading!
Now, let's look at this in two parts. 1. How old is the earth? and 2. How did it begin? Where most people get stuck is thinking that they have to choose God, creation and 7 days or Big Bang, evolution, and millions/billions years, without anything in between. (Mimi's Quote)
According to the bible, there is no stradling the fence here. It is either Creation, or evolution.         Genesis 1:1-2 "In the begining God CREATED the heavens and the earth, and the earth was WITHOUT form, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters." Moving along to later in the chapter . . . And God said, 'Let there be light', and there was light . . . And later . . . And God said, 'Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness' so God CREATED man in his own image, in the image of God he CREATED them, male and female he created them. So according to this, the same thing happened to make light, and man, God spoke. So if God could just speak light into existence, and he could just speak everything else that was created into exesitence, why would he decide to just "Guide" man into being? Why wouldn't he just speak man into being like everything else? And even if he guided evolution, why does the Bible say, "So god CREATED man in his own image" Why doesn't it say, "So God guided as simple single cell creatures advanced and evolved into multi-cell creatures, and eventually to complex fish, and apes, and finally, man" That would make more sense, wouldn't it?
How old is the earth? Well, the salt point has already been adressed, leaving you with a 62 Million year max. (Depending on which studies you look at) But what about Hydrogen?  Well, read this . . .
"To avoid the issue of creation, it would be necessary for all the material of the Universe to be infinitely old, and this it cannot be for a very practical reason. For if this were so, there could be no hydrogen left in the Universe. As I think I demonstrated when I talked about the insides of the stars, hydrogen is being steadily converted into helium throughout the Universe and this conversion is a one-way process—that is to say, hydrogen cannot be produced in any appreciable quantity through the breakdown of the other elements. How come it is then that the Universe consists almost entirely of hydrogen? If matter were infinitely old, this would be quite impossible."—*Fred Hoyle, The Nature of the Universe (1950), p. 125.
I heard a speaker who also addressed this issue, and he dated it, the earth could be no more than I think he said 50 THOUSAND years old.
But wait a sec, doesn't Radiometric Dating (RMD) prove rocks to be billions of years old? Well, lets look at RMD accuracy. As most of you know, in 1982(?) a Volcano in Washington State USA errupted (Mt. Olympus) later, a team of scientists came in and excavated rock that they KNEW had been formed by the lava flows. When they tested the rocks using RMD, they test results came out as 50 MILLION+ years old! Now I don't know about you, but 10, and 50 Million years is a PRETTY large differance.
Now study your body, I think your body speaks for itself, there is absolutley NO way it just came about by chance and evolution. The human body has features no other creature has! Talking for example, other animals can make limited communication, but nothing anywhere NEAR what a human can do.
As for those supposed mid-change species, well, here are some facts on them . . .
 
#1 Piltdown Man, of which only skull fragments were found, is used as proof of human evolution. It was proved to be a hoax in 1982. Collagen tests have since proved the jaw to be from an orangutan which had had its teeth filed down. 
#2 The oldest human-like fossil found so far is a modern human humerus dated by evolutionists at around 4 million years old. It is older than any supposed human ape-like ancestors such as Australopithecus. 
#3 Fossils of modern humans, Homo erectus and Neandertals (or alternatively, Neanderthals), have been found together, at the same level, in the same fossil sites. It is therefore scientifically improper to state that modern humans evolved from Neandertals, and that Neandertals evolved from Homo erectus. 
#4 There is nothing in the size of the brain to indicate morality, behaviour, or any degree of culture. Brain size should not be used to infer these type of characters on fossil remains. 
#5 The first reasonably complete fossil Neandertal skeleton was reconstructed by Boule in 1908 in an ape-like stoop - according to his own interpretation. It took 40 years for his errors to be corrected, yet many historians and teachers still teach Boule's original interpretation of Neandertal physique as fact.
Now,  bend down like you are trying to pick something up, aren't you in an "Ape-like stoop" right there? And when we find these skeletons, we don't find perfectly preserved people, skin, hair, muscle, tissue, we find bones, so any re-creation that includes tissues, hair, skin, muscles, is pure speculation.
And I mean, #1, Piltdown man, it took scientists 100 YEARS! to discover it was a hoax, and all they found where skull fragments, and I believe (Or maybe this was another one) leg fragments 300 YARDS AWAY from eachother! And you also have three differant "Stations" on the evolutionary path found in the same rocklayers!
Speaking of rock layers, if you have it taking a million years for a single rock layer to form, then how do you explain finding petrified trees that go through MULTIPLE rock layers!
Did this tree live to be 25 Million years old? I DON"T THINK SO!
 
I would be REALLY suprised if anyone actually read my entire comment, which is more like a report, but thanks to anyone who did, maybe you can read some of it,
Thanks again!
Webkinz Insiders Packerdan 
 
 
 
 
 
Wow! Great proofs! I have two more.

During the Mt. Saint Helens eruption, canyons with 20 layers were formed in 20 minutes. Previously, scientists thought (and still try to think) that it takes tens of thousands of years to form such canyons.

Also during Mt. Saint Helens, thousands of trees were washed into a lake by hot mud flows. These trees were fossilized in about 2 years, which completely disproves what scientists think about fossilization.



hoodedwarbler12
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Wacky's Webkinz Newz
View user profile http://www.wackyswebkinznewz.com

30 i know on Fri 05 Aug 2011, 1:02 pm

this is going to sound like i lost my mind but i belive in gods like zeus andathenea so i think that athena made it by words and that all the gods still play a part n this world now what do you think about that as for the bible i think someone made it up that makes more sense what do you think mimi

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sammy wrote:this is going to sound like i lost my mind but i belive in gods like zeus andathenea so i think that athena made it by words and that all the gods still play a part n this world now what do you think about that as for the bible i think someone made it up that makes more sense what do you think mimi

I honestly believe the contrary, those God's were worshiped by the ancient Greeks who told such stories to help explain the unexplainable that happened in their lives. I think those stories are interesting though because they teach great lessons Happy

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well i belive in gods to i mean how do you kow they are not real not everything is in black and white and i am not greek

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